Robin: How did you get to where you are now in this program?
Sally: Well, I’ve had a long winding history, and one thing
I would say to, you know, an intern, and people that are just starting out is
that it doesn’t always happen, you know, in a step by step way. I think that a
lot of it is luck more than anything. One thing I’ve learned about the environmental
education field is that--really any non-profit field or environmental field--
is there are a lot of people that want to do it, and a lot of times you feel
like how will I ever get a job and the fact is that you will, if that’s
something you’re interested in, but its always-- I’ve found through my life its
always through ways you don’t necessarily expect it. So I started out-- when I
was finished with college, I actually was an English and anthropology major.
So, I was going to-- I got offered this job out of school, (I went to
Vanderbilt in Nashville, Tennessee) and I got offered this huge paying job. All
the investment firms were recruiting liberal arts majors from Vanderbilt. So, I
got offered this huge job and I took it, but it wasn’t really what I wanted to
do. I just kind of felt off, whatever, you know, but they had a training
program. So I was all set to go. I had my apartment and everything, but then I
had a summer free. So, I thought, well I want to look for something to do in
the summer. And when I was in high
school, my teacher, growing up in Arkansas, took my class to the Keystone
Science School, up in Keystone Colorado, and it was a residential environmental
education program where classes went as a class and you, you know, got to do
environmental education for the week, and It just was the main thing in my life
that made me different, you know what I mean? I felt like that that was the one
thing that I had that just made me a different person. It was really-- it
mattered to me, and I went to my career office in college and found that Keystone
Science School had a flyer there and they were hiring people for the summer. So
I just randomly called them, and they said that I wasn’t qualified, because you
know they were hiring environmental education majors, but they happened to have
one person that had dropped out, and they were kind of desperate to fill that
spot, and they were intrigued by the fact that I had gone there in high school.
So they did an over the phone interview, and they said that they’d put me with
somebody that was more qualified as my partner, and they hired me. But, here’s
the thing (this just shows you how life has these little twists and turns):
they- the training program for my big job-- overlapped by about three weeks
with the keystone program, and neither one of them would let me, you know, not
do the program, so I – it was one of those paths diverging things. I chose the
summer at keystone over my huge paying career job in Nashville and of course my
parents were like panicked and you know oh my god what’s she doing and so I
went to the Keystone Science School instead, and it just kind of, you know,
changed my life. It was a different trajectory, of where things were going. So,
I ended up working for the Keystone Science School for that summer and then I
continued working for them and I was a program person and then I directed their
summer program and camp program and—anyway so I had a big background in
environmental education. But it again wasn’t really necessarily what I thought
I wanted to do so I went back to graduate school in cultural anthropology,
thinking I wanted to be a professor, and I sometimes regret that I didn’t go
ahead and go that route but I got my master’s degree and then I ended up moving
back to Boulder thinking I wanted to work in a non-profit in more of an
advocacy field, not quite you know like more protecting places rather than
environmental education and so again, this is one of those things. I moved to
boulder, Colorado, where everybody in the world wants to do that kind of work,
you know, and it just happened to be that I met somebody, I knew somebody at
this place called the Land of Water Fund of the Rockies, and they were kind of
the main regional group doing work on environmental issues and I got hired as a
development assistant and immediately they switched around their staff, and
they asked me if I wanted to be the development director. Like, it was just
kind of weird, you know? So I did that, and then I was the acting director so I
stayed there for 6.5 years, and then I left. I am also a musician. And I was
writing songs on the side, and a lot of the bands in Boulder really liked my
music and asked me to play with them and record with them and do things with
them. And all of the sudden I had a CD that was getting some national
attention, so I actually quit my job, after 6 years, and I put out 3 CDs and my
third one charted nationally. You can check it online, its kind of fun. So for
the next 6 years I toured nationally and was a professional songwriter for my career.
And I loved it I mean that’s-- but it its hard to make a big living. It was a
fine living but you know, it’s a hard life. It’s a fun life, but I in the mean
time you know got married and then I had my first kid, we moved to Durango, and
I was still doing it but it was really almost impossible to keep it up at the
level that I was doing it with, you know, a kid. So I was thinking well, what
do I want to do. Do I want to you know keep just trying to do this a little bit
or do I want to get back into my former career, and I for me I didn’t really
enjoy doing music if I wasn’t really doing it all out. I wasn’t-- I didn’t like
to just play in a bar here you know and just play around. So I thought, you
know we put it on the shelf for a little while, and I wrote down I thought,
what do I want to do and I literally wrote down 3 places where I would want to
work if I was going to go back to work and the top was I put Durango Nature
Studies and I wrote like the Animas History Museum, and then Center for
Southwest Studies or something you know. Because again, it combined my
anthropology degree with my background in teaching environmental education with
my nonprofit experience. So then, literally this is so weird but the next day I
opened the paper and they were advertising for a part time position at Durango
Nature Studies, just like helping with communications or membership or
something. So I thought ok, so I applied, and I got it. And literally, within
two months of me getting it I was way overqualified you know but it was just, I
was just thinking I would just ease back in they were having some transitions
here and they asked me if I would take over as executive director. And I went,
it was really weird because I wasn’t quite ready you know, I still thought I
was phasing out of music and kind of phasing back in to other things, and so I
had to kind of make a decision and I thought you know as much as I’m not quite ready,
a job offer like this doesn’t come along everyday, you know. If they were
advertising it probably they’d get hundreds of applications from all over the
country but it just happened that I kind of got in as they were making this
transition. It was easy for them to just let me take it over. So I did and
that’s been almost 6.5 years ago and it just has turned out to be that it was kind
of my next calling. I loved it, you know? We’ve grown it and I just think it’s
great, but for me it combines like I said: my- I left out a lot of stuff I did
a lot of jobs along the way but I-- after Keystone I also was a consultant for
this group called Calwood environmental education center. I was on the board of
this group called Earthwalk that’s an environmental ed center. I worked for the
National Wildlife Federation and that was kind of the first part of my career
as doing environmental education which is what like Allison and Klancy are
doing now but then, once I combined that with being development director and
acting director of this other group I really learned how to run a non-profit
and so then that’s why I feel like Durango Nature Studies is perfect because it
kind of combines my background and knowing what they’re doing but not really
doing that anymore. At least I know what they’re doing. I’m not so removed
because like I said, a lot of executive directors they don’t necessarily have
to be knowledgeable of what the program people are doing, because you’re kind
of doing different things but it helps I think because that way I can guide
them and think about what we need to do. That is an example of a very
circuitous route to getting to where I am now. And you know some people its
just been my experience its very rare that people, you know, see a job, I mean
I did it when I was the assistant here but you know sometimes for big jobs you
think like for you as you get older you know when you’re applying for jobs if
you get rejected its really “ what? I was perfect for that job! “ Or “I was highly
qualified” and it’s because you’re competing against all these other people and
usually other people have little ins and its just an interesting thing to look
back at life and see how your path kind of all connects, you know, when you
look back. Okay, that’s a very long answer, but there you have it. Do you have
any questions about that?
Robin: Well, so now I’m just a little curious: If somebody
had told you were going to do this, like in college or in graduate school, how
would you respond?
Sally: Well, its funny, in college I was a little bit more
focused on I didn’t really get interested in the nonprofit world or
environmental education until I went to keystone to work. When I was in college
I really like I said my masters was in English and cultural anthropology. I
really thought I was going to be and anthropologist. That was what I wanted to
be and again I wanted to get my PhD in anthropology and be a professor and you
know again its one of those routes that or, or the other thing that I was
interested in being was a journalist and the thing that I left off is I’m
actually 47 so I’ve had a long life so I’ve left off a lot of stuff but I’ve
tried different careers and its sometimes interesting that you don’t always
like what you think you’re going to like. So for example in college I really
thought like my dream was to work for National Geographic as like a journalist
and a cultural anthropologist. But, one thing that I did do too in there is I
actually worked for a year for the Washingtonian magazine you know OI was an
editorial assistant in DC and then I was a newspaper reporter. So the
Washingtonian magazine after I did that they said if you really want to move
higher in the charts you really need to go work for a newspaper for a year and
get your journalism chops down so I did and it was interesting because again
that what I thought I wanted to do but when I was really doing it I really
didn’t like it and so you find out sometimes that you know your idea of jobs
that’s why its so great you guys are doing internships because a lot of times
your idea of jobs is not always what it really is like and like I found
personally that I didn’t do well with deadlines and I didn’t do well with
confrontation because as a reporter you really have to be kind of you know, in people’s faces. And
you also have to have a really thick skin because you can’t be like you have to
be focused on the story not worrying about what people are thinking about what
you’re saying and you know some people have a natural knack for that I found
that that was really uncomfortable for me and I didn’t see myself changing to
do that I mean sometimes you have to change in order to you know and that’s a
good thing but I found that it didn’t really fit my nature and also I like I
said I don’t like writing on a deadline and it would stress me out and I was thinking
about it all the time. So I found that I really didn’t like journalism as much
as I thought and then as far as cultural anthropology goes I did love that and
there were a lot of other life circumstances that kept me from finishing my PhD
and I still kind of wonder that’s still a part of me par t of me thinks oh
maybe I’ll be 60 and I’ll go back and be a professor again you kind of have to
follow where life takes you and at the time, you know getting your PhD is a
long road, you know it would have been a lot more years and I also I don’t
know. The timing just wasn’t right and this led me a different direction and so
I would have not thought that at the time you know when I was in college. But
the funny thing is that I was going to say is like five years after college I
kept having this—again this sounds so weird but its true I kept having this
vision of me working for like me literally in this office. I know that sounds
weird. But I kept envisioning like where can I see myself and I kept seeing
myself doing environmental education but sitting in an office and I just
remember thinking hmm I wonder where that’s going to be. So there was a part of
me that kind of felt like that this is again that this is the right match for
me I also didn’t like teaching as much as I thought, so it was nice for me that
I got the experience teaching, because I know what they’re doing. But I really
like you know running things. I like being organized and directing people and
running and organization, but I for me I’m not one of those people that could—I
couldn’t run an organization I didn’t care about or think was important. So
that’s why its—I think environmental education is very important for you know
the next generation and it adds a lot to our community. So, I’m glad I can put
the skill that I know I enjoy which is kind of being organized and running
things and delegating and doing all- basically running a nonprofit towards
something that I think matters. And that I’ve had experience doing, so I know
what they’re doing. So I guess I’m kind of answering your question in long
roundabout way but I couldn’t see myself doing this at an early age but after
kind of trying all the things that I thought I wanted to do it all started
leading to here. And I think I’m in the right place. So, again its and I think
you know for somebody your age you should always start out with what sounds
interesting to you and try it and then its always a process of elimination
because it maybe your lucky and you find the right career path right away and
then you just follow it like my husband for example. He runs the wilderness
portion of the PEW charitable trust which is a big deal like it’s kind of on
par with the wilderness society you know in the upper echelons of the
wilderness movement. But he literally was one of those people that started out,
you know, rather than me that kind of went lots of directions and got more
education did different things he knew he wanted to do wilderness work, like
from day one. And he literally graduated from college moved to Alaska and just
started volunteering for the Alaska coalition I think it was called and from
then on he just volunteered. Then they moved him up to a paid position, then
they moved him over to the sierra club, then they moved him up to the public lands
part of the Sierra Club, then he got—he started this group called the Alaska Wilderness
League. Then he got hired by the Southern Utah Wilderness alliance and then he
got hired by PEW. So it was kind of like this he just was so focused that once
you get in it just naturally moves you up you know, where you want to go, and I
was much more like, I’m going to try this oh I like it or I don’t like it I
want to try this do I like it or don’t like it I’ll try this and you know it
was —it all builds. So I think there are kind of two different ways to go about
you know finding where you will ultimately be. Although it might not be here
you know ultimately is kind of a weird word because hey who knows maybe I’ll
have a totally new career in you know in 10 years but I think that it just kind
of is interesting how it all happens. But the main thing is kind of I think
that I guess the takeaway is that everything you do adds to you. And builds and
so that you know there’s always kind of a next thing if you’re not happy you
can use what you’re doing to kind of create the next thing and that’s what I’ve
found at least. And that sometimes you don’t see the forest for the trees like
you might be in a job that you don’t think is right for you but at the same
time whatever you’re learning form it is going to help you figure out what the
next thing you want to do is and what I think is interesting looking back at my
life from where I am now is how every little thing I did led to now even though
I couldn’t see it at the time. You know what I mean? So.. Yeah okay.
Robin: So what are your responsibilities as director of Durango
Nature Studies?
Sally: Well, Basically I keep the place running. I mean
ultimately my main job is to make sure we’re able to fund ourselves, you know,
that we have enough money to go on. That's my primary job. Like the board could
fire me you know if I was not able, like if we were not making payroll or we weren’t
you know so I have to make sure that all the bills are getting paid and that we
have enough money to support ourselves so that s ultimately the main thin. But it’s
also setting the vision of the organization. So I spend a lot of time you know watching
what’s going on here talking to people in the community, trying to figure out
where we need to be and what our niches are you know like in Durango I think
there are a lot of organizations doing different things and I’m trying to make
sure we’re not duplicating things that are not needed but we’re filling a
valuable role that needs to be filled. So, setting the vision of the
organization is my second role. My third role is hiring staff, and managing
staff. And then my fourth role is working with the board to make sure that we
have a larger support system. So you know as executive director those are kind
of the main things that you would say an executive director is responsible for.
I feel like since were a small nonprofit, I do a lot more busy work than a lot
of executive directors do like I kind of manage the calendar and do a lot of
communicating with teachers, I do a lot of advertising and a lot of you know
trying to make our brand be out there. And you know I have a real hands on
approach so a lot of membership work like I like to send personal letters to
all the members and my style has kind of been the reason why I think I’m kind
of successful here is I like to kind of try to keep it small—I mean small as
far as staffing. Big as far as what we’re able to offer and the way to do that
is for everybody here to do a little bit of everything, you know? Different
bigger organizations like the one I worked for before there was a lot more of a
hands off approach from the executive director and that you know I would never
open my door, and I would wouldn’t really be aware of what people were doing
and I like to know what everybody is doing all the time. And maybe that’s – I
don’t know if that’s good or bad. But that’s just kind of how I work. And I’ve
found that it helps because you are able to talk to people in the community
about what we’re offering and give guidance to program stiff because you know
what they’re doing you know rather than just kind of “go, do it.” So, I kind of
look at myself as the overarching visionary that helps everybody know what
direction they need to be going as well as ultimately fundraising.
Robin: What do you enjoy most about it? What’s your favorite
aspect?
Sally: I love how everything comes together. That’s kind of my—I’ve
found that you know over the time that I’ve been here where I first started
there were a lot of—it wasn’t as well organized and I enjoyed making all the
pieces click. You know. And what I enjoyed the most is when we’ve developed a
program because we’ve seen a need and then you’ve seen over time that not only
is that need there but people love it and it’s grown, and you talk to people in
the community that say “ oh my gosh, our kids—this makes all the difference in
our lives and we’re so glad you’re here” and then watching how things get easy.
And I know that sounds weird, but like when we started our Earthday 5k or
mountain film on tour some of our events we’ve done, you know we didn’t have
any events when I first started. And we set an event calendar and all of the
events the first year were kind of hard, they barely broke even, and then now,
6 years later, we have people calling to ask if they can give us money for
events, you know? And so what I like the most is seeing how ideas that start as
little nuggets blossom and become fruitful. And the ideas that don’t work, they
don’t, and that’s what I like to watch, you know is paying attention to the
things that become easy versus the things that are still hard after 4 years and
the things that are still hard after 4 years, then you know, that’s not a good
idea. You know, lets drop that Idea. And the things that are super easy and
just become like and it all starts coming to you, like its crazy when you’re
sitting here you know 4 years ago you were having to make all these calls
asking people to donate for different things and then I’m sitting here now and
people are calling us saying can we please be a sponsor? You know, its really
fun to watch how that happens. And I think one thing I’ve learned in this job
is the main thing to do is to do what you can and then let it go and see what
happens. You know, rather than get so caught up in oh this is supposed to work
and you know then it stresses you out. But to have enough things going on that
you can kind of have them all going on and throw them out there and then give
it a little time and energy and then watch what comes back and its fun, you
know? Its fun to say oh, our summer camps work,” you know, or nature club works
and you know, our mountain film works. Okay, the giant Earthday celebration
didn’t really work and oh you know, having one day a week where kids can come
out to the nature center, that doesn’t really work, you know? Like to just kind
of—it’s like a puzzle, putting it all together. So yeah that’s what I like
about it.
Robin: what are the most difficult decisions you find
yourself having to make?
Sally: Usually staffing issues. I mean, the main thing that
I have a hard time with is again, my style like I said is to be much more hands
on both with the board and the staff. Other nonprofits if you were to jump in
might have a totally different feel a lot of times in nonprofits they have kind
of a the board only talks to the executive director and the executive director
talks to the staff and there’s no—some nonprofits actually work like that like
the board fires and hires me and I hire and fire the staff and there’s no, you
know, talking in between. But again, because it think you know its difficult
like I am friends at some level with the program staff or you or with Rachel
you know whoevers here I feel like it’s a small enough group that everybody has
a lot of interaction. But what’s hard is that when you have to out on your—I
always have to maintain a little bit of a professional distance so that I can
think about the organization and not just the people and so the most difficult
things for me in this role is when you can tell that somebody’s not really
right for a position and its not working out is how to know when to sever that
bond you know and like to give people chances but not let it drag the
organization down at the same time. So I’ve had to make a few decisions that I
really wish I didn’t have to make, but it was the right decision or the
organization was going to really suffer and so I think that’s always the
hardest part of being a boss is knowing when to take off your friend hat and
put on your boss hat and make decisions that are really hard to make. And it
teaches you boundaries you know because you have to make them because if you
don’t make those decisions you’re being irresponsible to the organization
because with a small group like this you have to remind yourself here and there
that it's not—like I could be fired too, this isn’t my organization, I work for
the organization. And so even though it’s easy to kind of you’ve been here a
long time think its all you its not, you know? It's the organization, and then
you plug it in with the people, and so my job is to make sure that things are
running well and if they’re not like if I ignore them then I’m being
irresponsible and not doing my job and so that’s the hardest is sometimes you
want to ignore that. But everything’s going great now but I’ve made—I’ve had to
make some staffing decisions in the past that you wish you didn’t have to make
and you do. And so that’s the hardest part for me.
Robin: On a little bit of a different track, where do you
see the organization going? Do you have any vision for where you want it to be?
Sally: Yeah, it’s funny because right now you’re coming on
the end of a time that we’ve kind of achieved some big goals so now I think
we’re in this phase of deciding what our next goals will be. For a long time when Durango Nature Studies
started, the two main goals that I had—well three actually. I had three goals.
One is to make us much more fiscally solvent. We were—when I started it was
struggling a little bit you know it was kind of hand in mouth, so we—I wanted
to set up a savings account which we have and I wanted to get—look at the year
and cash flow and make sure that there wasn’t ever a time that we were going “
oh my god, we don’t have any money” you know? So I had to look at the calendar,
and that’s why we have a lot of these events is trying to get it where we
always have money rolling in every month. There wasn’t any month where there
was a bad month. So that was one goal. And that’s definitely been achieved now,
you know so we’re now I can look at the year and know that each month I can
count on something coming in. So that was one goal. The second goal I had was
that it used to be all our school programs were just you know teachers decided
on their own whether they wanted to use it or not. And, that was great, because
we had a lot of great teachers but I felt like the kids out there that didn’t
have great teachers in that sense weren’t getting these programs, and plus it
was a lot of work for us to advertise something that we felt we were offering.
So my goal was to get it funded through the school district and that’s happened
so now we have this big grant for Ignacio and 9R and its going to be Bayfield
next year so that every single class can come K-5 can come to our program and
it’s paid for. So, that’s huge. So now that we have that, one we have the
classes, so we don’t have to worry about recruiting, and two we have money,
because they’re being paid for so that’s been a big goal so that was big. And
then the third goal that I had which seems kind of small but is I think
something to build on for our next goals is that you know the nature center was
just this flat parking lot up top and then the nature center was down below and
we had it for our programs, we had it for summer camp, but there was no way for
people to visit the nature center so we opened—we got funding to build that
little welcome building up top and even though its small it makes all the
difference because now we have a program where we can open it on Saturdays,
people can check in, and there’s a place to hang out rather than just this
parking lot so opening the nature center to the public I think makes us much
more of a place that people want to visit in addition to having a premise. So
those were our 3 goals that we’ve achieved. So now were kind of “ok, we
achieved them” and so personally where I’d like to see us go is looking at ways
to make the nature center more of a community resource. I feel like the first
year it opened but its not like we had floods of people coming out there on
Saturday s but I’d like to be where people just know that the nature center is
there and we get a lot more people visiting on Saturday s on we’re able to
offered a lot more workshops to the public so its more of a nature center. So
that’s one of my personal goals and then another goal is to just look for more
programs like we’ve got with the 9r program where we can do partnerships to
fund programs that are needed like I’d love to do a southern Ute partnership
where we were offering programs to the southern Ute I’d love to go into middle
school and high school and figure out a way to have high school students do
projects down there that you know, that they could do long term projects and
get something out of it. I think this internship is a great thing you know. So
I guess I’d say the two goals I have for myself and I don’t know if the board
and staff would agree is to expand the nature center’s use and to branch into
middle school and high school and figure out ways to meet the needs of that
demographic. Because I think they’re different than the environmental ed
programs that we have k-5 I don’t think really high school and middle schoolers
respond to that like oh lets play a game about the water cycle. I think they
need to do more project based things down there and I want to figure out ways
to—like animas high did the bullfrog study down there which was cool but more
things like that where groups can do studies and—well as well as keep it
fiscally sound. I’d love to also build an endowment, which means that in
addition to our savings account we’d build that and build that and build that
so that we never have to worry financially. I mean right now our savings
account is a savings account you know it’s for if you had a really bad month we
could dip into it. But I’d like to get where we had enough money where we could
even use the interest as part of our funding so that we didn’t have to worry so
much about fundraising and we could focus more on just maybe add another staff
member or do more programs does that make sense? That’s kind of where I see it
going, but I feel like we’re taking a breather as we’ve achieved these three
goals that seem pretty big and now we can just take it from there.
Robin: do you have anything you’d like to add before we close?
Sally: Well, I’d just like to say that again it’s been
really great having you here. You know its funny because we—because Rachel kept
you know bringing this up and it was just during our off season and it’s be
interesting to see what you though if you came during our on season because you
would have spent more time in the field. But we decided ok we do want to be a
part of this so lets make it work even though its not a time that we can just
easily send her to do all of this stuff. So we were a little nervous thinking
“I hope we have enough for her to do, this might be hard,” and you know, it
might just be you but it’s been a really good thing I think partnerships like
this are a way to get high school kids involved in thinking about our program
and thinking about us and ways we can help you guys you know I guess I’d like
to say that I- my last thing is that I think that one of the other joys that
I’ve seen in being here is starting out where I felt like we were working
really hard to get people to be part of us. Now I feel like its not that way at
all it’s that people are starting to come to us and we need to be open to that.
And I think it’s been really fun to see a younger crowd coming. It used to be
like you know the Grossmans and people like that who were really the die hard
folks behind DNS and they still are, but its nice to start seeing you know
college kids and our volunteer training filling up before I even advertise for
it with people that are like in their 20s and then having high school kids want
to do internships with us and I just think its really fun to watch how it has a
life of its own and its starting to reach out to a younger crown and I want to
make sure that were the needs of that crown too. So I’ve really—I’m glad we
could do this internship you know? You’re the first try and so maybe you can
give us feedback too if its always during this time you know if you could see
us doing this next year too, because again its easiest for us to throw interns
into our program and to say oh do a program you know but it’s a little harder
to think of ways fill your time when that’s not going on, but I think its
worked.
Robin: I think so too!
Sally: So anyways that’s all I have, the main thing too when
you’re working for a nonprofit—My last though for you if you’re interested in
nonprofit work for your future again, there’s kind of the nonprofit side and
then the program side and both of them are a little different but you know they
dovetail, but the main thing about non-profit work that I’ve found is that you
can either- a lot of times people pick a job because of the money, and it might
not matter to them as much, but they have on their free time they can turn it
off, you know? The one thing about
nonprofits is that it’s hard to turn it off. And again, you’ll see our
schedules are kind of flexible, people are in and out, and I think part of that
is because you’re always thinking about it, and that’s a positive and a
negative. Its like I was thinking about this the other day. I used to think it
was so great to work for a place that you cared about because then you’re never
feeling like you have to like, just be at work and then go home. But the only
thing is that it’s also kind of stressful to never turn it off. To care so much
that you want to come in at night and make sure things happen and you do want
to do something on a Saturday because you care and so you know its—the
nonprofit world is an interesting world in that most people that do it you know
its kind of their life as well as their job, so you have to learn again
boundaries with that, you know how to be in the nonprofit world but also cut it
off so that you can go do the things you like to do you know, and so its just
interesting, but you know, its fun too, so anyway, that’s it. You have anything
else?
Robin: No. Thank you!
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